Sometimes I wish people knew how to properly give advice. Instead, most times, it comes out as critcisim. Or at least that's how I take it and boy does it annoy me (see earlier Nov. 2008 post, "Criticisms").
I mean, that's the point of giving someone advice isn't it? To help them out. It's NOT to make yourself feel more knowledgable and "better." Well, at least that's what I like to think when people keep talking even though they know I'm not listening anymore. It's as if they have all these thoughts inside their head that they just have to get out to make themself feel better. Perhaps it's that gratifying "I told you so" that you get to say only if you've told them (regardless of open ears).
It's just not very productive. I mean, if your end goal is to help them, and your words are clearly falling on deaf ears, then perhaps you ought to just not talk (that's a mucher nicer way of saying shut up isn't it, pity I still think of shut up when they're critcizing me though...hey, at least it's think and not say :P). Either that or try another way. Another way as in talk and not yet. No condescending voice. No raised eyebrows.
(Oh, and the reason I got all these talks was because I was driving on the highway today.)
Some people really are just crowd pleasers and (1) know how to talk. I wonder how they do it. If not even that, I wonder how they can still (2) smile and take criticisms. So much self-control (?), I wonder how they do that. That's probably one thing I need to know because I've controlled myself (moer or less) to not talk back, but my face (!) still gives away what I'm thinking (SHUT UP, SHUT UP, SHUT UP). >.
This is similar to another goal of mine a while ago. It was learning how to, for lack of a better word, influence people. Basically it was just to get my thoughts across. Hm, some call it manipulation. It's a great descriptor, I just don't like the connotiation. (Perhaps that's because people don't like the word, hehe.) Girls do get the tag of being manipulative, but this wasn't what I wanted to get across.
The thought (to be able to influence people) came to me when my friend, we'll call him tech guy1, was asking me for some advice about dating. He was asking what he should do because he knew this tech girl kind of liked him but he felt okay about her (as in, he could grow to like her), but after all, you're in college and you're supposed to date around.
(No, I didn't lash out at him. I actually agree with him, you should date around to find out the kind of person you want to be with.) Anyway, I started to say something, which started out as, "Well if you already know she's not the one, or she's lacking some things that you want. I don't see why you'd want to date her. I think you should only date around when everything fits and you're not aware of certain things you don't like..."
On second thought, I wonder if I even got to say that much. I remember being cut off really fast. "KAREN! You don't understand, I'm a TECH guy and this is a TECH girl. How often does a girl like a guy at tech? You don't understand Karen ... "
And immediately he doesn't listen to anything else I have to say and we drive off in silence. Or we might have changed topics after a minute or two.
Anyway, that made me realize the urgency of the situation. Well, not this one, but for future ones that matter more. Sex? Drugs? Your life?
I wonder why I got cut off before I could even finish my thoughts/advice. It's because tech guy1 didn't think I could ever understand. And he's true, I'll never be able to empathize with him, perhaps sympathize, but that probably wasn't good enough at the time.
It doesn't even matter that my advice might be worth listening to, I got cut off immediately because surely I wouldn't know anything about this matter. (To clarify, he was a bit tipsy and probably didn't remember asking me for advice. Therefore, someone seeking advice would probably be more inclined to listen. But the point remains.) It made me wonder how I could get my thoughts across/influence him to see from my point of view.
Heh, I told a friend of mine this goal and he thought it was kind of dangerous. If I ever got good at it, well, my friend just hoped that I had good intentinos in mind. Another friend thought thoughts like these made me fascinating. I think so too. I wonder if other people/who else thinks things like these. Is this the kind of guy I need? Someone who I can have fun analyzing?
Anyway, is people could just learn how to properly give/receive advice there wouldn't be a need for me to think of how to give advice to stubborn people. Intransigent. Grrr.
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Oh, and to think I just wanted to write a short (hah!) entry, cough, rant, about people who criticize me and annoy me and thus I don't listen to them but they still keep talking anyway. You probably got that somewhere around this big ol' mess.
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(Happy New Year!)
ReplyDeleteI am glad to see you writing so much. Its a great way for me to put my free time to use, and I like some of the questions you ask.
I realize that I am starting a reply to a rant on criticism with something that can be percieved as just that, but I believe it to be a vital point to my response (and I promise it will be the only comment of the sort), so: How can you say that people 'just need to learn how to properly give/receive advice' if you admit to being unable to do so yourself (at least on the receiving end)? It is true that some people do not understand others well enough to give advice without it appearing critical, but....
Well, to change the focus to something useful, the key to delivering advice and criticism properly is that you need to be able to understand where the other person is coming from and what their thought process is. For instance, if you had started your comment about not dating the girl by mentioning how hard it is for a guy at tech to get a girl, you tie his thinking into yours, it flows, then he actually considers it! (He might not do it, but you have established to him that you understand him and in the future he will listen to your advice on matters)
Taking advice involves the same concepts really. Understanding where the other person comes from helps out alot. They may not be correct in everything they say, but there is typically something worth taking to heart in any criticism. Nobody wants to be told they are wrong or whatever, but we all screw up, and accepting the criticism for what we do wrong is the easiest way to improve ourselves for the future.
AND, of course, there is a proper time and place for everything. I am guessing your highway driving leaves something to be desired and hence you were criticized. The problem with jumping at you for that is that it is probably something you have heard hundreds of time, and bringing it up again does little good other to invoke the 'shutupshutupshutup' response.
At any rate, I think there is a bunch of fluff in here (but its so hard to respond succinctly to these questions!), I hope that at least a little bit of my response makes sense to you though.
ps. analyzing people is a blast. No matter how much you try to understand them, they will always surprise you with something different. It is really fun.
Hrm, well most times I write both sides (e.g. give/receive advice) to cover myself, and also, by covering myself, see other...viewpoints. Not only that, but writing it out makes it permanent (in a way) and therefore I am now forced to do likewise or appear hypocritical! So then I try harder. As in, it's also a way to check myself. Furthermore, I'm also included in the "people." I mean people in general. So it's kind of like qualities I believe humans should make an effort to have. More or less all of those reasons, and then some.
ReplyDeleteHm, and just for your particular scenario, if I did try to describe to a guy how hard it was "for a guy at tech to get a girl," I'm telling you that guy would not really believe me. And you know what, I kind of agree, there's no way I can ever really know until I do it myself (another thing I believe). I might be able to hear my guy friends groan and complain, maybe even don my invisibility cloak and be there on the spot to witness it, but I can't really ... empathize.
Furthermore, another thing that really(!) annoys me is when people try to empathize/sympathize with you but don't/can't. Most times it's probably because they don't fully listen to whatever situation you're trying to describe, immediately think it's what they know, and then just start blabbing away. I think most times, girls at least, just want you to listen so they can rant. Sigh, girls. Guys I believe, or so I've heard, just want an answer. So different. Maybe.
So how about Jeff, your idea would work, if everybody was clear-minded and not agitated. Oh, and if they listened. Since this is real life though and the aforementioned scenario is not the case, and they're not like that, it probably won't work like that. Imo. You can argue otherwise (which you kind of have).
I really like your idea behind writing these thoughts down (to influence yourself). It is a fantastic way to 'pressure' yourself into beneficial change. Also there is nothing wrong with being hypocritical in this regard as long as you are able to acknowledge it and actively attempt to improve it (which you are). I think a real drive to improve oneself is a quality that is not found often enough in people. At the least, a drive strong enough to produce actual change.
ReplyDeleteYou would be very surprised just what (who?) you can empathize with. It is true that you can never experience for yourself just what he is talking about, but that does not mean you are unable to understand the situation. It is sort of a funny situation, giving advice like this. In order to really discuss these situations with people, you need to be able to understand them. However, in order to understand those situations you need to have experienced them yourself or vicariously through another, and of course, to experience it through another implies an ability to empathize and discuss the situation with them. So, it is sort of hard to get started, but thoroughly possible.
I never gave real consideration to what you say here though: "Furthermore, another thing that really(!) annoys me is when people try to empathize/sympathize with you but don't/can't." It is definitely a point I will keep in mind for the future. (I thought I should mention that real fast).
Okay, well I do like my world where people are nice and listen and stuff. Thats a hard place to reach, certainly. buuuutttttt, I think that if a friend comes to you for advice, they really have two reasons to do so: either they just want their own idea affirmed (at which point there is little you can say to change it), or they really value your opinion. In that latter case, your voice will be heard if you are able to show them you understand.
...Maybe I am too idealistic...
well i'll just say one thing, it's hard for people to think clearly when they're agitated/emotional.
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